Orion, You should write a book! I've come to value your insights on this board, and this time you have overdelivered!Is Savan near the area of CA that used to refered as Sub Base?

Orion-

Yes, VERY fascinating....and this goes along with everything I have ever been told about the "down island" people. Do you know what the citizenship status is for all of the people from the other islands living on STT today? Do most of them just live as "Nationals"?

Re: the Dominican Republic. I have a few childhood girlfriends left on STT (both black and white), and they are ALL married to Dominicans. They spend lots of time traveling back and forth between STT and DR. Yes, the island is full of Domincans.

Thank you so much Wes. To be honest I'm trying to bring the plight of the Dominicans to documetary television (the story being far more intense than I stated here). I presented my idea to the Discovery Channel but they turned it down and I KNOW for a fact this would bring to light a whole world that many people are not aware of. Heck, just a few years back, a Dominican women was tossed overboard in the Mona Passage because she refused to give breast milk to thirsty and delirious co-passengers after the smuggling boat became stalled in open water. That in itself is a story.

I have followed this story and yes, I want to bring it to the public and have considered a book for posterity, however, I have been junking out on documentary channels and thought that their story would make for a great program. I just need some support and help, someone to get into the ears of some CEO at A&E, National Geographic or The Discovery Channel network. After that, I want to bring the story of the Jamaican Maroons to televsion or the big screen. Heck, I kno wall about WWII and WWII, Egypt and the Pyramids and the Wild West. LOL!!! Time for matters in the Caribbean to gain a place in the spotlight too. Interestingly enough, the very same Discovery Channel did a program on the slave revolt of 1733 in St. John. I was actually shocked when I saw it on global television.

Also, the story is personal because it will help me to also come to a better understanding of my own family and the family of other countless families in the eastern Caribbean who also share this connection. In fact, I think some of the popular and better known baseball players from the D.R are actually descendants of some of these migrant workers who came from the eastern Caribbean.

As for Savan's location - Savan is the area up behind the market square stretching west down to area behind the baseball field that faces the waterfront across from the Sea Plane dock and then north up against the slope of the hillside.

Again Wes, thank you. That was REALLY encouraging.

Bluwater I'm not so sure. I've not lived in St. Thomas in over 20 years even though I keep VERY close to the events and go back as often as I can. Each trip I try to observe and analyze the different things I see.

I would think that there are still a lot of people from other islands who are still there illegally. Not sure what they would refer to themselves as.

On another note, I am checking out the "Frenchie" history on our island as well as that of Puerto Ricans who came, mostly to St. Croix when the building of the Hess Refinery went up. It has been fascinating to me how a predominantly English speaking island like STX have so many people with Spanish last names. The reverse is true in the Dominican Republic where you can find names like Richardson, Huggins, Leonard, Tyson, Matthew, etc which harkens back to a past when people from the eastern Caribbean came to that island nation and left their mark.

Orion wrote: "Names of dresion arose for various groups. Those from Antigua were called 'gyarots' (a bird that travels from island to island). Those from Dominica were called 'gassos' because we used to hear the word all the time when they spoke. We just called all the rest of them 'islo.'"

And non-native whites were called "white cheese".

And natives of French descent (mostly via St. Barts) were called "cha cha" if they resided in Frenchtown and "goat" if they lived on the north side of St. Thomas (Dorothea, Hull Bay, Mafolie).

Richard N. Kurpiers

Orion,
Thanks for taking the time to shed some light on a complicated and virtually unknown story. As a (relatively) new property owner in the islands, I am always trying to understand more about the native people's history, culture and beliefs so that I may be as unobtrusive as possible in my interactions with those who have been around for generations, not just a few years. Any suggestions or insights on that topic you might share with us "white cheesers" would be appreciated!

I wish I knew some big producer I could contact for you. I'd find a way to get the begining of the story in front of someone like Ken Burns who is the best documentary producer that ever lived. They all take his call! Don't forget PBS as well. Burns did a fantastic doc on baseball. Don't you think it would interest those that watched that one, in why such a disproportionate number of professional baseball players come from D.R.? I would. I visited D.R. many years ago on a cruise. We visited Samana. I do remember the story of the woman throw overboard. With all of the boarder issues we have in the US, I would argue the most protected boarder on the planet is the one D.R. shares with Haiti! That is a story in itself. Good luck in your endeavour.

LOL@Regan. I don't even recall a name for our caucasian visitors/neighbors other than saying "de white people dem."

I'm not too sure if anyone has tackled this issue - come to think of it, I think I read something on it - but it appears that while many of us are aware of it, the actual story behind the story is not throughly investigated.

Orion

Your post is great. For a long time I have visted this post and have realized that many of the participants did not have any idea of the complex society that makes up the Virgin Islands. Thank you for clarifying alot of the misconceptions about Virgin Islander in regards to how we feel about tourist. Truly, we do enjoy the tourist and have great pride in seeing them enjoying our beautiful islands. Sometimes when I do read on this site the negative experience that some tourist go through, I sit and wonder who are these people that the tourist are running into. I am a native Virgin Islander also, both of my parents are from St Thomas. My maternal grandmother is from the Island of Nevis, she actual came to St Croix in 1903 with her aunt at 3 months old. My grandfather actually did not know she was an "Islo" LOL until I think they had about four kids. Sometimes I wonder if he had known about her, would he have actually married to her because of the different issues that you have mentioned in your post regarding the treatment of the down islanders at that time. Many of the things that you have mentioned have brought back alot of fun memories of a more peaceful loving Virgin Islands. We had our differences but we coexisted. I do think that everyone who lived in the VI at that time had the islands at heart in comparison to today. It is in my opinion that many of the new comers "(not everyone) are there to make money but truly do not care about the islands. I do think that many of them, their loyalty lies with their home island. I truly do not have any problem with that, but what I have a problem with is when they treat our vistors with disrespect and give the VI a bad name. Orion keep up the great work and I do hope that you are successful in your endeavors I truly enjoy your insight not only on this post but on the other one regarding the shooting.

Wow I feel like a celebrity all of a sudden. LOL!!!

Anyway Wes, I guess I'll have to see if I can track down this Ken Burns fella and yes, I wish Sammy Sosa was still in the National League so I could try to see if I could gain an audience with him while visiting the Marlins. The Orioles (his new team) trains about 2 and a half miles from my home, but I did not think about this idea until Spring training was over.

Rhea, thank you for your encouragement. I was actually raised in St. Kitts for the first 8 years of my life, and then off to New York City (Bronx) until I was 12 before finally living in St.Thomas the land of my birth. It was not until, however, within the past 10 years, notably since my uncle was assasinated in St. Kitts in 1994 did I really take on an interest about my islands. Each visit within those years was like a spiritual experience for me, but it was in 1999 on a visit to Nevis for my grandmother's funeral did I begin to notice the Dominican invasion.

When I lived in St. Thomas in the 70s and 80s I did remember coming across a few Dominicans and Haitians, but not in the numbers I see now. On that trip to Nevis, my brother and I were driving through the town of Charlestown one night and heard salsa music coming from a club and it puzzled me. Came to find out that it was a Domincan club filled with Dominicans. Then on another visit in 2003, there were about 3 more clubs and even two of my cousins (my mother's side) there married Dominican women and have children by them.

Now on predominantly Jamaican bulletin boards, I often deal with yet another issue, that of, the friction between Jamaicans and people from other islands. That in itself is a whole other issue but the short of it is that there is a simmering issue between Jamaicans and people from the other English speaking islands. This stems from a few things, but in between all of it is a level of ignorance on both sides, but seemingly more from the Jamaican side. Jamaica is an isolated island, isolated in the sense that the islands which it shares a common colonial history with are pretty much all 800 miles to the east and southeast. Jamaicans in the past generally migrates to the U.S, Canada and England. On the other hand, people in the eastern Caribbean do a lot of island hopping and many come in contact with each other in the great bend area of the Caribbean so despite the frictions and tensions we might have, we are exposed to one another and learn about each other. In Jamaica this is not the case in large part. This tends to build a VERY strong sense of "Jamaicaness." For many Jamaicans, like my wife, both parents will be Jamaican and so will the grandparents before you get back into the age of Indentured servitude where some Jamaican familes will find Chinese and Indians. In the eastern Caribbean one or both parents might be from elsewhere and one or more of the grandparents might be from somewhere else too. So a native Virgin Islander might grow up aware of roots from other places whereby in Jamaica no such thing happens on a common basis.

Most Jamaicans will never some in contact with someone from another island until they go abroad while many people from the eastern Caribbean will have come in contact with quite a few before even going abroad. Because of this, many Jamaicans are generally unaware of the similarities they have with other islands and when they come in contact with them, there tends to be ingredients involved that could lead to some tension. Jamaicans might refer to people from other islands as people from "small islands." While a Jamaican might be speaking in geographical terms to the "small" islander might take offense because "small" hints at insignificance. Then we have outsiders to thank for yet another reason for the rift. LOL!!! Sometimes when a peson from some other English speaking Caribbean island is asked where they are from and then say it, they might be asked something like, "where in Jamaica is that" or "is that near Jamaica?" Then you have Jamaicans who ask similar questions. I am from St. Thomas and Jamaica has a parish by the same name. In the past when I have told some Jamaicans I am from St.Thomas, they ask me where in St.Thomas (their parish) am I from. These things rub the islander from other Caribbean islands raw. Coupled with all of this is the fact that Jamaicans have taken on a stigma in some places and people from other islands do not want to be associated with them. Jamaicans sense this and they then get up in arms and the vocalization starts with Jamaicans claiming people from other islands are jealous of them because of their universal successes and recognition, etc.

So it is rather interesting that in the Virgin Islands we celebrate diversity and in truth Jamaica's motto ("Out of many, one people") could be more justified in our islands than Jamaica when you consider our extremely diverse population. However, our diversity produces the positive effect of richness, but the negative in dilution, but that is matter of perspective I guess. I am a native Virgin Islander, but I also have intense loyalty for the islands of my parents. In Jamaica, they do not have such a wide range of diversity at our level where the population is made up of people from all over the Caribbean and beyond and it helps to make Jamaicans, well, Jamaicans. In the Virgin Islands you can probably find at least one representative of every Caribbean island from as far as Cuba and as near as Anguilla. In Jamaica this is not the case.

As is human nature, we have tend to focus on the differences and overlook the overwhelming evidence of similarities. We in the Caribbean are no different. A little education can go a long way which is something I strive to do as you can tell. Despite it all, I love our islands and my region of the world be in Jamaica or Aruba. Would not want to be from anywhere else.

NOTE: Excuse any typos. too lazy to proofread. LOL!!!

Nice post.

I would say though that history of some of the islands preceeds that. It also is great to explain STT but even little St. John has a history and locals owned the land before Rockafeller(sp?) bought up most of the land and gave it to the US goverment. There is still some sentiment against that. STJ, I believe is the only island that is close to half locals and half sideside cheesers. I don't even know which one I would be but since I don't own land, i'd probably be a cheeser. Coral Bay has a very storied history from what I've heard. Lots of stuff going on, always.

Orion
I am quite aware of the Jamaican and other islanders tension, but whenever Jamaicans ever accuse me of being jeoluos of them, I willquickly remind them of the RED White and BLue that Flies over the Virgin Islands and the green american dollars the we spend in addition to the reasons why they have migrated to the U.S. Therefore we Virgin Islanders have nothing to be jealous about. If anything they are the ones who are probably jealous because of our status of being part of the great Amerian Family. Something that I would not change for the World. In addition, to Virgin Islanders being proud of our place of birth we are also very very proud to be American citizens. Our men and women have served in the U.S. military from the begining and continue to do so. We also felt the pain of 911 and any other adversity that might affect the U.S. I truly do not see tourist coming from the mainland U.S. as outsiders but more as extended family visiting my home.

Orion, it is with interest that I read your posts. I, as a fourth generation Virgin Islander, find it amusing your calling yourself a 'native' Virgin Islander. I can assure you that many longtime Virgin Islanders would not agree with that. I notice that many still feel that even the children of islos or garrots are still the same, although many of them who think and say that have family some generations back that came from other islands and elsewhere! This will go on forever, especially now with the influx of Dominicans and Haitians.

Former Senator Adelbert Bryan tried to define Virgin Islander by passing a law stating that a Virgin Islander would be a person who had both parents and grandparents born in the Virgin Islands. they would be called aboriginal Virgin Islanders. Well, that got nowhere in the senate, but the sentiment is still there amongst many die hard Virgin Islanders who still resent the down islanders or Eastern Caribean people as my sister likes to refer to them!

Very interesting stuff. You might be the thread that will bring the people together!

Ronnie

I know Ron, but is deh I barn. LOL!!! I remember the ruckus that Bryant caused, but that does not change anything. I love St. Kitts and Nevis. Both will retain a place in my heart as the places where my parents came from. In fact, you and I know that they might as well unite ALL of the northeastern Caribbean as one nation because of the visible intermingling that went/goes on. My stepfather is from St. Martin, yet another island that has its representation in St. Thomas. When all is said and done, however, St.Thomas is my heart.

Orion & others,
Thank you for sharing your time, experience and knowledge with us!
I leave tomorrow morning for a week in St. John for the second time, and I love to be a bit educated on the history and people that host us.
Thanks!

Thank you Orion for sharing, I find it fascinating.

All the best with your research. I have been researching my family for years, off and on. I found a picture of my dad last year when on an ‘old picture hunt’. He was age 18 or so, standing in front of a house in - you guessed it - Savan, where he lived when he first moved to St. Thomas. It can be challenging sometimes but the rewards of finding that 'really wow' piece of family history makes it very much worth it. Again really fascinating!!

There is a book called ‘Cultural Aspects of Delusion, A Psychiatric Study of the Virgin Islands’ by Edwin Weinstein. It provides information on how each group related to the other and VI society. It is primarily about Virgin Islanders, Continentals, Puerto Ricans, the French and British Virgin Islanders living on St. Thomas and the VI. (Of course it also discusses mental health/delusions/case studies.) Here are some keypoints.

Please note the book was written in 1962 so applies to the society then… some things have changed, some evolved and others are the same.

It discusses the VI society being stratified based on gradient of color. Mentioning that people are described as Black, brown, red, dark and light rather then lumping all Blacks together. The author mentions that there are distinguishing factors between a white local and white continental and black local and black continental. It stated that there was a greater willingness of locals to accept criticisms from a white continental then from a black continental. And that tensions result when visitors lump all natives together or when race-conscious Blacks from the states attempt to awaken pride in Black ancestry. The author mentions that many Virgin Islanders felt that color prejudice was brought in by Americans after the transfer and that many Virgin Islanders serving in the armed forces were subjected to discrimination.

Discusses the way the French were scorned because they were seen initially as a poor white minority and then seen still with some distaste/jealousy as their status changed with growing prosperity. It mentioned that continentals were a shifting group because so many returned to the states after a short time. It then gets into sense of identity, stating that this was easy for the French and Puerto Ricans. But the Native Virgin Islanders had a harder time because they didn’t feel wholly American, some stressed their Danish origin and that few had interest in being West Indian. The BVI people were also resented, like the French, because of their poverty. It mentions the rivalry between St. Thomas and St. Croix and further between Frederiksted and Christiansted on St. Croix.

In terms of gender the author mentions that women and men make about the same on the job. That housewives got low rating and the idea of deference to a husband didn’t exist. That there is a focus on feminine self-sufficiency and there is no higher status for just being male. That women feel more independent when they are with child, job and no husband. And that for men, the more children he has the greater self esteem. That sexual potency in the states might be measured by frequency but in the VI it’s by impregnation.

It mentions that Virgin Islanders preferred white collar jobs and have an aversion to manual labor; that cane field workers were Puerto Rican and from the BVI. That natives have favored jobs that they give value too – government employees, agents for large firms, taxis drivers, clerks are examples mentioned. That they are very focused of job status rather than performance and are very conscious of what they feel may be infringements on their status. The author states that he feels ambition is misplaced in Virgin Islanders. He continues to state that because of federal government jobs opening up that people are placed in them with little qualification. And states if an employee is discharged for dishonesty, there is tolerance and likely another government job will be offered. He reasons that Virgin Islanders live on the hard work of Tortolans and other immigrants and on the bounty of American government. That people don’t work for the virtue of work, they are suspicious of volunteers and that coming up from poverty is not regarded as particularly noble and that Virgin Islanders look down on poor, hard working immigrants.

It’s an interesting book! See if you can find it at your library if you haven't read it already. The mental health parts aren't hard to read as they aren't laden with medical jargon.

Thanks for the post. All the best,

--Islander

Excellent Post! A sensitive, informative insight that we all benefited from. I, too, hope some producer accepts your ideas. Keep enlightening us!

Max

Islander that was very interesting and I want to mention something in relation to that after I acknowldge Max with thanks.

Yes Islander, when I came to live in the Ft. Lauderdale/Miami area back in 1987, I walked into a store in Miami that sold a t-shirt wth all the flags of the Caribbean islands. I was about to buy the shirt until I looked and it did not include the Virgin Islands flag, but Puerto Rico's was there. When I looked next to it, I saw another t-shirt with flags of the various states and the V.I flag was there. Go figure.

Another time I was a guest on a local Caribbean radio station and while I was waiting to go on the air I saw a calendar on the wall showing the flags of the Caribbean islands. Yes, you guessed it. The V.I flag was NOT there.

This is another issue not mentioned too often, but exists. Virgin Islanders are in a respect, lost in terms of identity. There are other people in the Caribbean who don't really see them as true West Indians per se and to the Americans they are not true Americans because the natives were not born in one of the 50 states or D.C. The Virgin islands are not a part of Caricom or the OECS (Organization of Eastern Caribbean States). They are not linked to the former British Colonies which dominate the Caribbean. They are not a cricket/soccer venue which sometimes brings together Caribbean nationals from different Caribbean islands.

Interesting.

I cant say I disagree with that, Islander. It makes sense of the "entitlement" attitude that I feel sometimes.